Re: Rotary in your future

ozinoz Wrote:
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> Wouldn't this be something
>
> Where do I sign the petition to get things started?
>
> Grant

I am just stirring the pot I don't think there is any doubt the head chef wants to get things cooking....I am just suggesting 2018 timing looks to be the next best opportunity if folks want to start the ball rolling now. Here is a little history from John Bush to prove my point.

Rod

Re: Snow - 15 days ago

As we always say "the nicest thing about winter railroading is that it makes you realize how easy it is to do in the summer". John Bush

Re: Plan "B" ? for C&TS snow clearing - 11 months ago

We do not plan to operate Rotary 0Y this year. This winter we are working on a 1472 day inspection of locomotive #488. When we run the plow it will require that several locomotives be ready to go in addition to the plow. The rotary itself is actually very close to being operational. We do plan to run it in the future but not this winter or spring. We will keep you posted. John Bush


Re: Rotary OY - 1 year ago

… we didn't paint the OY gray until after the 1995 rebuild. John Bush

Re: Friends/ C&TS MOW photo charter; Oct. 3, 2015 - 1 year ago

We figure 12 people per caboose for the 0503, the 0306, and the 05635. Less for the 0579. John Bush

Re: Last posting C&TS Flanger and Winter train - 1 year ago

All the K-36s will be lettered with the "flying Cumbres & Toltec" logo during the regular season. They can be re-lettered for special charter or movie work but will be re-lettered at the end of the event. The K- 27 will continue with the old style Rio Grande lettering for now. John Bush

Re: Rotary OY update? - 1 year ago

We did perform a hydro test on the OY this last summer. It passed the test. We still have to do a careful internal inspection before we call the state(Colorado) boiler inspector. I am not particularly concerned about the machinery but there are a few things I would like to address before operation.

We need to do some body work and paint before it is ready to go. This winter we are busy with the 1472 day inspection for #487, next winter we will have to do the 1472 on #488. At this point the most likely date seems to be the winter of 16-17. I still have to figure out the way to fund this operation. It will require at least 3 functional steam locomotives to make this happen.

One of the concerns is how to get folks to support the operation when most of the good viewing between Chama and Cumbres is from a public road. John Bush

Re: OY Status - 2 years ago

I have been asked about the tunnels. Mud tunnel has had work done on the framing and ballast since the rotary was last moved through it. We want to make sure that it still clears. John Bush

Re: OY Status - 2 years ago

Let me clarify a couple of items and provide an update.

Rotary OY has passed a hydrostatic test. We will now do a through inspection of the machinery to determine what work will be required on the cylinders, valves, pistons, bearings, air, compressor, flanger, tender, trucks, brake valve, dynamo, brake rigging, etc.

We will also be making a loading gauge to mount on a flat car so that we can insure that it can fit through the tunnels.

I will keep you posted as to our plans and progress. John Bush

Re: The Great Rotary Show - 2 years ago

Running the rotary was truly an opportunity to experience "old time" railroading. During the 90s we did it to open the line and get the kind of publicity abd national attention we could never afford to buy.

It is my plan to inspect the 0Y this year and see what it requires to be ready. After that it is up to money and snow amounts. John Bush

Operation of Rotary 0Y - 3 years ago

All, I am very interested in a viable operation of the Rotary. It is in my plans to get the rotary inspected and painted this coming summer. This does not mean it will run sometime between November of 2014 and June of 2014 but if we do the inspection and painting it may be possible. As I see rotary operation it is more intended to be an experience than a major photo shoot. John Bush

Re: All this discussion of OY…. - 3 years ago

In the later years we used two firemen. The idea was that one would handle the water and shove coal down where the other could get it without breaking his rhythm. When the shoveler got tired we would switch off. It worked great in theory but in reality every time we switched off the new guy managed to screw up the fire. John Bush

Re: Superheat in Rotary Snow Plows? - 3 years ago

The 0Y is superheated. It does have it's original boiler and probably it's original flues and tubes. It is important to remember that the rotarys were not used frequently. The 0Y has only been used once since we rebuilt it. It will require inspection, paint and perhaps a slight adjustment to the right side half axle. The rotary is not a locomotive and it's boiler is not subject to FRA 1472 day inspection. John Bush

Re: Speaking of Rotaries - 5 years ago

Earl, Thanks for your post. Needless to say I agree with you. I firmly believe that part of our success while I was there Oct 89 - May 96 was due to the fact that we did not receive the assistance of internet coaching, criticism, and complaining. I have noticed that those men and women who have actually run a mountain railroad are far less likely to criticize than those who haven't. John Bush

Re: Winter Special discussion has been derailed... - 6 years ago

I will apologize in advance for hijacking the thread but that’s the way it goes on the good old NGDF.

With all due respect Jerry you and I will have to agree to disagree about the use of the rotary. Judging from the dates stamped on the various parts I would conclude that the damage suffered when the half axle broke in 1995 was not the first time things broke on the rotary. It wasn't even the first time that part had broken. All manner of things broke and wore out on the rotaries, k-27s, k-36s, k-37s etc. When things break you fix them. The Rio Grande did it and so did we.

It is my understanding that the rotaries were used for clearing avalanches as well as drifts and soft fluffy snow as long as the crews were relatively certain they did not include rocks or trees. If you have experienced digging out avalanches you are aware that the snow pack in them is every bit as dense as the snow that has laid undisturbed all winter.

If you look at the logistics and costs involved in bringing equipment into service for a January or February special and then winterizing it again you will find the necessary ticket price will be unacceptable.

We arranged national prime time coverage for doing a job that needed doing anyway when we ran the rotary in 91. The cost of 3 minutes of prime time advertising far exceeded the cost of running the rotary including the cost of all the repairs that were eventually made after 1995.

I have not seen national news coverage of opening the line with bulldozers or Soni's modified snow blower.

I stand by the decision we made to use the rotary the way we did and would do it again. The 1991 event also provided a nice shot in the arm for the Friends of the C&TS and helped provide funding for the tank car project.

Respectfully
John Bush

Re: Rotary Snowplowers-Question for John Bush and Earl Knoob - 6 years ago

In answer to your question between 1990 (my first winter in Chama) and 1996 (my last winter in Chama) the OY was used 4 times. 0Y was used in 91, 93, 94,and 95. In 95 it broke a "half axle connecting the left side fly wheel to the bevel gear. At the same time the cylinder head on that side was broken. A new axle and cylinder head were made and applied between May 95 and April of 96. During that time we also rebuilt the super structure. The wooden superstructure frame was replaced with channel steel and nailers were bolted into the channels. Tongue and groove siding was milled and nailed on to replace the old siding. The result was that it had a stronger body than before but visually looked the same as it did during the "Rio Grande" days. At that time we painted it MOW gray and lettered it. It was ready to operate in 96 but the snow pack didn’t justify its use.

Jack Campbell who was my Master Mechanic while I was CMO became CMO when I went to Alaska. He was in charge when 0Y was used in 97. Other than one bearing running hot which he said would need a little adjustment It operated well in 97. Any rebuilding it would require now is due to the neglect of having not been used or cared for in the last 12 years.

I know there has been much comment that the rotaries should not be used again, or if so only in mid-winter when the snow is fresh and not packed down. I disagree. Rotary plows were used in blizzard, drift, and avalanche conditions on Cumbres, Marshall, Boreas, Lizard Head, White Pass, Corona, Tennessee, and Donner for years. It is worthy of note that the axle that broke on the 0Y had a date stamp of 1939 on it if I recall correctly. Remember the the machine was new in 1925, and there is no reason to believe that the 1939 axle was the first replacement. These parts did break and were replaced on a continuing basis during the life of these machines. If one looks at the reports there are frequent references to snow fighting being interrupted because the plows had broken down. "Service em like they serviced em, ues em like they used em, and fix em like they fixed em." To my way of thinking that is the way to preserve and interpret both the product and the process that was the historic railroad.

John Bush

PS Before I came to Chama they had removed 25 tubes from the OM's boiler for inspection. We did not work on it while I was there so I have no useful information to contribute on that subject.

Re: Denver CBS covers D&S snow removal - 6 years ago

When we ran the "Rotary Snow Plow Passenger Extra" May 4,5 1991 my wife Veronica arranged for it to be filmed by Bob McNamara from CBS news. It was shown nationally on the "Evening news with Dan Rather", and on the "Early Show". The cost of running the OY was assumed by Kyle railways. The revenue from ticket sales went to the "Friends of the C&TS". The event boosted membership in the Friends and supplied a sum of money which helped defray the cost of bringing the tank cars down from Alaska.

We could have cleared the line with a caterpillar but it would not have gotten us on national TV. The piece ran about two and a half minutes and showed twice. We figured it was about 2 million dollars’ worth of free advertising. If I recall correctly in the years 1990 thru 1996 ridership grew from 50,000 to just under 60,000.

By the way all the locomotives, caboose, and rotary were lettered Cumbres & Toltec.

John Bush

P.S. If I can figure out how to get the news clip off of VHS and on to YouTube I will post it.


Re: If you had $3 Million - 7 years ago

$3000,000- get a snow plow in operation.

Just because things on this and other boards tend to pass into being accepted as true if not countered I feel obligated to remind you that the Rotary 0Y was stored serviceable after last used. It was rebuilt just before last use and I know that one bearing needs adjustment. Assuming that it was put away properly after its last use I will personally come to Chama and put it back into operation for $150,000 and put $120,000 into my own pocket.

The cost of restoring all this equipment has gotten out of hand. The railroad is better equipped than when I was there and wages have not grown that much. Better cost containment measures seem to be in order.

John Bush

Please note: It is not my intent to slam anyone but sharp pencils should result in substantial savings.


Re: Back to 1997......again - 7 years ago

Thanks for posting these pics. Just to set the record straight the 0Y was used in 91,93,94,and 95. In 95 it broke a "half axle connecting the left side fly wheel to the bevel gear. At the same time the cylinder head on that side was broken. A new axle and cylinder head were made and applied between May 95 and April of 96. During that time we also rebuilt the super structure. The wooden superstructure frame was replaced with channel steel and nailers were bolted into the channels. Tongue and groove siding was milled and nailed on to replace the old siding. The result was that it had a stronger body than before but visually looked the same as it did during the "Rio Grande" days. At that time we painted it MOW gray and lettered it. It was ready to operate in 96 but the snow pack didn’t justify its use.

Jack Campbell who was my Master Mechanic while I was CMO became CMO when I went to Alaska. He was in charge when 0Y was used in 97. Other than one bearing running hot which he said would need a little adjustment It operated well in 97. Any rebuilding it would require now is due to the neglect of having not been used or cared for in the last 12 years.

I know there has been much comment that the rotaries should not be used again, or if so only in mid winter when the snow is fresh and not packed down. I disagree. Rotary plows were used in blizzard, drift, and avalanche conditions on Cumbres, Marshall, Boreas, Lizard Head, White Pass, Corona, Tennessee, and Donner for years. It is worthy of note that the axle that broke on the 0Y had a date stamp of 1939 on it if I recall correctly. Remember the the machine was new in 1925, and there is no reason to believe that the 1939 axle was the first replacement. These parts did break and were replaced on a continuing basis during the life of these machines. If one looks at the reports there are frequent references to snow fighting being interupted because the plows had broken down. "Service em like they serviced em, ues em like they used em, and fix em like they fixed em." To my way of thinking that is the way to preserve and interpret both the product and the process that was the historic railroad.

While it would be wonderful to see the rotary run through deep snow in mid winter it is difficult to get a large enough paying audience on short notice to justify it. I believe it can be run effectively and without undo risk in the spring as the WP&YR did this year.

My 2 cents worth.
John Bush

Plowing snow - 7 years ago

That is the point (it was called "orgasm point" when I was there) where we would really start using the Rotary. John Bush


Re: OY abuse - 8 years ago

I have been traveling driving from Felton CA to Austin TX taking my son to start graduate school and just discovered this thread. I do not have time to respond in full to all the posts concerning rotary operation in general or the operation of the OY in particular. However I will say that we knew exactly what we were doing when we ran it and we made repairs to the equipment as necessary. When the half axle broke it was not the original nor even the second one that had been put on that unit. The superstructure was in poor condition before we ever ran the OY and we completely rebuilt it in the winter of 95/96 when we installed the new half axles and cylinder heads. It is clear from the photos and looking at the machine that it has undergone numerous repairs and rebuildings since it was new. I dont know how it is now but in the years that I was in Chama the stuff that got used got worked on and improved. The stuff that didn't get used didn't get worked on.

I do not recognize the names of any of the posters in this thread as people who have worked on the rotary in Chama or elsewhere. What little expertise I have in this area comes from working rotaries on both the C&TS and the WP&YR. I am always amazed when the people who know most about it are the ones who havent worked on them at all.

Sorry for the rant but in the fall of 1989 (when I arrived) C&TS had three functioning locomotives. in the spring of 1996 (when I left) it had 6 functional steam locos, 2 functional diesels, and a rebuilt and serviceable rotary. I think we knew what we were doing.

Im sure I will feel better when I get a beer and a good nights sleep.

Again sorry for the rant
John Bush


Re: Rotary question - 8 years ago

The wheel was never balanced. That is why they always stopped the wheel when going over bridges and trestles. When the wheel is not buried in snow it was not spun or only spun slowly. When the wheel is cutting snow part of the wheel is loaded and part is empty. Any attempt to balance the wheel is at best of limited value.

As I recall by the way the quarter axle on the OY which broke in 1995 had a 1938 date stamped on its end. Breaking and repairing snow fighting equipment was all part of the game. If you are going to understand old time railroading you have to understand that.

Using rotary plows to clear branches that had been shut all winter was the way it was done. That was not abuse. Running a rotary through an avalanche where there was reason to believe there were rocks or trees without first probing could be abuse. The rotary was commonly used to clear slides that didn't contain rocks and trees. John Bush

Re: Steam Rotarys - 9 years ago

Ah yes the infamous Rotary Snowplow Passenger Extra. That event spawned many a story. John Bush

Why we ran the rotaries - 10 years ago

It was not just a coincidence that I was involved in C&TS rotary runs in 91, 93, 94, 95 and WP&YR rotary runs in 96, 97, 98, 99, and 2001. In both places there was a cadre of people who thought it could be exciting, challenging, useful, and of good publicity value to operate the rotary to open at least part of the line.

For my own part I have generally felt that the old tools were well designed for solving the old problems. At the C&TS in particular the road bed, ties, cuts, and fills were in a condition that I was not comfortable with using caterpillar tractors on. Additionally we did not own a cat of any kind much less one that set up to crawl over railroad tracks without tearing up the ties. The rotary on the other hand was specifically designed for plowing snow off the railroad.
The WP&YR had cats set up for use on the railroad and also had personnel experienced in using them. The steep (American) side of White Pass is prone to both ice and avalanches neither of which is easily handled by rotaries. That was the reason they started using caterpillars in the first place. On the Canadian side of the pass there was lots of snow but not much in the way of ice or avalanche danger. It is well suited for use of the rotary.

At both railroads there were people who were familiar with steam operated machinery and who wanted to experience or experience again what old time railroading was like. Both railroads were looking for publicity. In the case of the C&TS in 1991 my wife Veronica arranged exclusive coverage by CBS news. A story produced by Bob McNamara appeared on the national “CBS Evening News” with Dan Rather and also on “Good Morning America” with Harry Smith. The story which was all “good ink” as they say ran about 2 minutes and 30 seconds. Since it ran both in the morning and the evening we got 5 minutes of national air time. We figured that even in those days that was about $1,000,000 of the kind of good advertising you can’t buy. We chartered a train with the Friends of the C&TS to go along with it. By joining the “Friends” riders got a discount and the “Friends made enough money to help with acquiring the tank cars. I think the “Friends also got a healthy boost in membership.

Clearing the railroad with caterpillars does not produce national news coverage.The WP&YR also ran the rotary in conjunction with charter trains and got TV coverage.It is absolutely true that it was hard work. You have to have lots of locomotives in good working order, experienced and dedicated crews, supportive and visionary management and public relations professionals with good contacts to pull it off.

There were tremendous challenges to overcome every time we ran. In 1991 The Rotary spent the night at Cumbres. The watchman didn’t use the right hand injector all night and the supply line froze and split which required a 5 foot long pipe line weld the next morning. Also the follow train got stuck in the snow cut above Coxo curve and had to be rescued by the engine which had spent the night on top with the rotary. In 1993 we shoved the rotary with 3 locomotives. Despite shoveling snow into the tenders for most of the day we ran low on water in the locomotives at Windy Point. The Chama Fire Department had to bring us a load of water and pump it up to the locomotives so we had enough to get to the Cumbres water plug. We arrived well after dark plowing 6-7’ of snow with the stack shooting a veritable Mt Vesuvius into the night sky.

In 1995 just short of Los Pinos trestle one of the half axles on the OY’s engine broke and took out the cylinder head. While we were rebuilding the engine we also rebuilt the framing on both sides and put new siding on. After the rotary broke we finished clearing the line by bucking with the pilot plows. West of Long Creek the lead engine picked up a wedge of snow under the plow and ran up on it. It disassembled most of its spring rigging and disabled the engine. We had to drag it back near the highway west of Los Pinos siding and use hydraulic jacks to reassemble it.
By the time it ran in 97 I had gone to the WP&YR.

I would not recommend using a pilot plow and Jordan spreader on anything but fairly fresh snow. The accident that occurred with the 484 after I left proves that bucking snow with a pilot plow can be fairly dangerous. The only serious accident I am aware of fighting snow on the WP&YR happened bucking snow with a Jordan Spreader between MP15 and Tunnel Gulch in 1946. The spreader hit some ice and went over the side resulting in one fatality. The remains can still be seen 500 feet down the side of the mountain.

In 91, 93 and 94 after clearing the line we backed up from Osier to Cumbres at night. In the coal stove warmth of the caboose with our bellies full of homemade burritos from the outfit car we enjoyed the kind of camaraderie that comes from success against great odds. We had to fight off sleep but they are some of the fondest memories I have of the C&TS. The bonds formed by those battles got us through many a tough time. John Bush (the one who is NOT a writer)

Re: OY question? - 11 years ago

My understanding is that the current tender behind the OY was taken from a standard gauge Rio Grande Western engine. It may well have been a 4-6-0. The wheel sets were re-gauged and the side frames and bolsters retained. The brake rigging was rebuilt to accomodate the 36" gauge of the pushed in wheels. Because the deck of the OY is higher than the bottom of the tank there was a false floor in the coal pocket. This caused no end of problems when it came to patching leaks in the tank as it got older and began to rust through.