Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum

Sumpter Valley 1st #1 (1 reply)

J.B.Bane — Fri, 26 Jun 2026 15:48:12 -0600

Here we have a shot of Sumpter Valley Ry. 1st #1 taken in 1897 at South Baker. Note that the engine appears to be on dual gauge track. #1 was built in 1881 by Brooks as c/n 530 for the Utah Northern and came to the Sumpter Valley in late 1890 to early 1891. Posing on the left is engineer F.M Shurtliff and on right fireman Jim Hunt. The fellow in the middle is unknown. The scan is from the SVRR Archive.
[attachment 103873 img7785-Copy-Copy.jpg]

O.R.E.G. Rosters (1 reply)

RonRudnick — Fri, 26 Jun 2026 10:38:44 -0600

I have a large collection of Official Railway Equipment Guides. Every so often they would publish some narrow gauge rosters, that most railfans are unaware of. I'm thinking of occasionally posting them on this forum, just to let narrow gauge railfans know that they exist
The first of these comes from the Central of Georgia Railway, March 1900.
Box #1001 - 1049 49 cars
Flat #1051 - 1059 9 cars

Ron Rudnick

The Rest of the 223 Story (1 reply)

Jerry474 — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 19:03:29 -0600

The 223 will be temporarily reassembled for movement by truck to Durango end of July first of August.

Hope all of you who want to see it restored and operating will put your money where your mouth (fingers) are. The foundation can use all the financial support they can get.

[www.223locomotivefoundation.org]

[attachment 103866 _Z807339copy.jpg]

[attachment 103867 _Z807348copy.jpg]

[attachment 103868 _Z807409copy.jpg]

[attachment 103869 _Z807410copy.jpg]

[attachment 103870 _Z807669copy.jpg]

Mike Trent's C&SI/RGS 74 article (11 replies)

Todd Hackett — Fri, 26 Jun 2026 15:09:10 -0600

This article resided on Bill White's RGS Technical Page for many years, but Bill stopped hosting that quite a while ago. I will try to resurrect it here. Bill's intro is here, and I'll try to post the article in replies. I needed to split a few of the pages into two parts to keep to the NGDF limit of six images per post.

[attachment 103831 draw1.jpg]

A Narrow Gauge Legend

A very special thanks to Mike Trent for allowing me to publish this article. I am so very, very pleased to be able to post this article on the web site. It is a major accomplishment on Mike's part and I am very thankful for the privilege of bringing it to you. I think you will agree that Mike is to be commended for his efforts in the research and writing of this superb history.

Thanks also go to John Coker and Joe Crea for allowing us to use their drawings and prints. John Coker's drawing on this page shows engineer Bert Nash and fireman Leo Croonenbergs in the cab of the 74 on the infamous Rocky Club trip of 1949. Joe Crea's prints of the 74 appear later in the C&S section of this article.

More thanks go to the Denver Public Library and to the Colorado Railroad Museum for allowing us to use many of the photos in this issue. Hot links to both appear in the links section of this web page.

Another big thank you goes to Kathy House a good friend and the editor that makes sure all of my spelling is correct and all of my commas are where they belong. It is through her efforts that this page looks as good and reads as well as it does.

As you can imagine, a locomotive that's over one hundred years old has quite a history. As a result this article is quite lengthy. I have broken it up into several sections to speed up loading time. The first time through I highly recommend that you read the sections in order. All of them can be reached from this page--or once you are into it, from the preceding or following sections. This will allow you to reach each of the sections easily and quickly, or if you wish to return in the future to read only certain parts.

As many of you know, the 74 came to the Rio Grande Southern from the Colorado & Southern. Many are unaware that the locomotive had belonged to two previous owners before the C&S. In reality, only the last four years of its working life were spent on the RGS. Because of this, Mike and I made the decision to include the entire history of the engine in this article. Besides, it would be impossible to understand the events, famous and infamous, of the locomotive's RGS years without understanding what had gone on in the years before the RGS got her.

So it's all here, from the time she was built, to the latest plans for her restoration. From the canted valve chests that were her curse, and her salvation, to the green boiler paint and broken windows that marked her debut on the RGS. Much of it is told in the words of the men that actually ran her. Where appropriate, comments from knowledgeable people from our own times are also included.

Many, many people helped with the research and writing of this article. Mike will thank them in the forward but I will take the opportunity now, to say thank you so very much for making this history possible. Bravo to all of you. Bravo.

How to make a Roundhouse 2-8-0 look real? (CB&Q #537) (8 replies)

Mason2-6-6t — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 21:19:01 -0600

So, I bought a Roundhouse MDC outside frame 2-8-0 a while back, I've been thinking of making it look like CB&Q 537; it has most of the mechanical detail already there. I know I have to make a new cab out of probably brass, which is doable, I'll probably have to mill the domes off, add a new boiler jacket from brass and put new domes on/in that, but what I'm not sure of is the way to cut the cylinder saddle down to height and do stuff to the gear retainer to make that work. If anyone has done a similar project with D&RGW 360,361,375, etc., I'd love to hear a bit more on how to make it into a higher end model. Furthermore, do you have any suggestions for what motor I should use? Standard DC here, nothing special. Thanks!

340 and 41 Doubleheader at Knott's (5 replies)

The Train Tracker — Fri, 26 Jun 2026 12:18:25 -0600

Saw this video on YouTube (posted by So Cal Railfan) of 340 and 41 doubleheading at Knott's. They look great! Sure hope they find their way back to Colorado someday though. Thought I'd pass this along to everyone.

[youtu.be]

Sumpter Valley R.R. Speeder #M-31 (1 reply)

Buffalo Bob — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 13:07:59 -0600

Last week, I visited the Sumpter Valley R.R., and among other things, I looked over the #M-31 speeder. It is a Fairmont MT14-L (Z36). There should be one or two digits following the “L,” but without a builder’s plate or factory records, I can’t tell what those one-or-two digits would be. The “Z36” means 36-inch gauge.

[attachment 103789 WPYRSpeeder2017onSumpterValley2026-1.JPG]

[attachment 103790 WPYRSpeeder2017onSumpterValley2026-2.JPG]

[attachment 103791 WPYRSpeeder2017onSumpterValley2026-3.JPG]

The Sumpter Valley R.R. acquired this car from the White Pass & Yukon sometime between 1991 & 1993. Evidence suggests that originally this car was among the equipment that Mannix Co. purchased in 1969 in order to upgrade White Pass track for the heavier trains and locomotives needed to transport the ore from the then-new Faro Mine. When the track project was completed in 1970, the car was turned over to the White Pass.

[attachment 103792 14ContainerRouteNews2page1June-July1970.jpg]

[attachment 103793 14ContainerRouteNews2page3June-July1970.jpg]

Fairmont records reflect that this car was NOT sold directly to the White Pass. White Pass direct purchases from Fairmont were made from Fairmont-USA (Minnesota), because the subsidiary that owns all White Pass movable rail equipment is an American (West Virginia) corporation. Fairmont-USA records do not include the sale of this car, so the sale was not made directly to the White Pass.

By contrast, Mannix Co., the contractor for the track upgrade, was a Canadian corporation. To avoid Canadian tariffs, Fairmont set up the Fairmont-Canada corporation, which assembled USA-made parts. A Canadian company like Mannix would have made its purchase from Fairmont-Canada in order to avoid the Canadian tariffs.

The Fairmont-Canada records are NOT kept in Minnesota, and required you to know a car’s serial number first, which I don’t have. Only the Fairmont-USA records could be accessed if you first knew the purchaser, such as the WP&YR. So, I only have copies of the relevant Fairmont-USA records.

Mannix is now part of Loram, a track upgrade company in many countries. “Loram” is an acronym for “LOng RAnge Mannix.” Mr. Mannix was a Canadian citizen. He later expanded his track-upgrade business to other countries.

Robert

488 front plow in 1981 (7 replies)

ToltecTalk — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:20:44 -0600

Brian J, posted a short cut to some of Earls threads, which I am most grateful for.

In these photos here I thought that 488 looked quite different than the way I was used to seeing her in the 1990's

One thing that stood out to me was that 488 has what I have figured to be 487's plow.

Who decides what plow was placed on which locomotive. Just unusual to see the long plow on 488.

[ngdiscussion.net]

No Way To Treat a New Engine (no replies)

J.B.Bane — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 12:13:53 -0600

This sad scene was captured during the winter of 1921. On Thurs. Jan. 20th, 1921, the 13 stall roundhouse of the Sumpter Valley Ry. at South Baker caught fire. It was at night, so many engines were inside and heavily damaged. Among the damaged engines were #19 and #20 which were less than a year old. In this shot we see #20 after some work has been done to clear the burned debris from the scene. Note that the air pump governor is missing from the steam line. I am not sure if this indicates #20 was under repair at the time of the fire, or it has been removed after the fire. This scan is from the SVRR Archive Wilt Collection. Our archive holds the original negative in another collection.
[attachment 103787 14735-Copy-Copy.jpg]

Eric Mason (5 replies)

djunda — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 20:31:04 -0600

Is Eric out of the CEO job at the C&TS? I had a friend meet with him last week about soome art work. Now he heard he is gone. Is this true?

Looking for info on how to visit the USG Train & Gypsum Mine (2 replies)

ahtnamas0722 — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 15:14:32 -0600

Hello everyone!

I'm the Education Director at Anza-Borrego Foundation and part of the planning committee for an annual Desert Research Symposium in southern California. This year the symposium will be held in Anza-Borrego Desert State Park and we're planning a series of field excursions for symposium attendees. We're very interested in taking participants to visit the USG train that serves the Gypsum Mine in Ocotillo Wells. Does anyone know where I might be able to find more information about this? I read that the mine may give tours? Or even just knowledgeable folks who would want to lead an excursion to the area and/or talk about the train? If you have any info to share, please email me: Samantha@theabf.org

Thanks so much in advance for your help!

Cheers,
Samantha

Double Header in Chama, June 23, 2026 (5 replies)

Yard Limit — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 08:14:23 -0600

Watching the Chama to Antonito train departing Chama this morning, I noticed that it had ten cars. The platform was also crowded with people, so it was a really turnout. After the issues on opening day, I hoped the railroad had doubled headed the train, and yes, I can see two whistles from two separate locomotives as it departs.

[attachment 103774 20260623_095256_Export.MP4.00_07_50_14.Still002.jpg]
[attachment 103775 20260623_095256_Export.MP4.00_07_46_15.Still001.jpg]

Did you know that the railroad has departures every day except Monday from Chama? Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday are Chama to Antonito. Tuesday and Thursday is Chama to Cumbres and back. Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday is Chama to Osier and back. Like everyone else, I was concerned about the 'every other day' to Antonito train, but with these shorter excursions on other days, it appears to be a good situation.

Tank cars (7 replies)

akirkpatrick — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 11:33:06 -0600

I just watched the C&T passenger train leave Chama today double headed and with two tank cars.
Is water so short that they have to carry water with them?

Allan

Western River RR 2-4-0 (1 reply)

RSS — Mon, 22 Jun 2026 22:31:56 -0600

All;
Anyone have build data and/or good photos of the Disneyland Tokyo Western River Railway locomotives, or suggestions as to where to find such info? Need for a model project...
Thanks,
Ryan

Silver Vista Modeling question (11 replies)

fr8train T — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 16:26:15 -0600

I'm building a model of the Silver Vista and I want to know what color the trucks should be? Older photos appear silver while newer photos appear black. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

478 (12 replies)

Jerry474 — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 13:31:29 -0600

K-28 #478 is being rebuilt and converted to oil by the Durango & Silverton. Last week it was getting a sand blast job.

[attachment 103757 478-1.jpg]

[attachment 103758 478-2.jpg]

If you want to know more about the 478, I know where you can.
[shop.whiteriverproductions.com]

Nice paint job on 482 on the C&TS (7 replies)

ToltecTalk — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 14:14:30 -0600

Was 482 considered on the C&TS to be used as one of the work horses at one time in 1972?

This picture makes me think that this was a possibility to put such a nice coat of paint on her, to have her just sit in the yards as was the case before being acquired by the D&S on the trade with 497 in early 1990's.

[www.ebay.com]

A bit of History - You can't go home again (2 replies)

Cbq4002 — Mon, 22 Jun 2026 19:12:51 -0600

Below is a photo by Otto Perry taken in October 1941 of C-25 375 on the Silverton mixed. I recently purchased the book "Otto Perry's Railroad Pilgrimage". On Page 8, is the photo below. Being a baby boomer, and due to circumstances beyond my control, I had no exposure to the Narrow Gauge except through numerous books and magazines such as Trains. My first NG experience was in 1971 when I rode a pair of Rocky Mountain RR Club charters over Labor Day weekend. C&TS and D&RGW.
This photo piqued my curiosity as to where it was taken. I showed it to a number of NG people in February during the RGS Winter specials, and the consensus was that it was taken near the Hwy 550 overpass. I had to satisfy my curiosity!
[attachment 103753 1941-10-18MP467OttoPerrySilvertonMixedcopy.JPG]

I took the liberty of colorizing it
[attachment 103752 1941-10-18MP467OttoPerrycolorized_Fotor2.JPG]

Do to the fact that in February there was over a foot of snow on the ground, descending the fill from Hwy 550 level and then climbing back out, seemed a bit foolhardy, especially for a lowlander. So, I had an opportunity to attend the D&RGW 340 activities in early June. Perfect. No snow. Below is the location as it can be shot today. I don't recommend attempting either going down or up the fill, unless you are in good shape and have good balance. It is treacherous. If you go down, take a cutting device to knock down the sage brush.
[attachment 103754 2026-06-0510-50-27_02MP466.9Hwy550overpassDRGW340WbyRonBurkhardcopy.JPG]

Next is the going away shot.
[attachment 103755 2026-06-0510-50-34MPMP467DRGW340WbyRonBurkhardcopy.JPG]

This last image was taken to represent the approximate location Otto might have stood, although, upon looking more closely, suspect he might have stood closer to the flange oiler in the back ground, which is about 25 feet in back of where I was standing. Given the steam from the steam dome area, my take is the engineer was blowing for the Hwy 550 road crossing. This is obviously pre bridge. I shot this at 50mm, which would be the focal length he likely would have used.
[attachment 103756 2026-06-0611-07-03MP467byRonBurkhardcopy.JPG]

Ron Burkhard

Colorado Cars in Oregon and Back to Colorado (2 replies)

J.B.Bane — Mon, 22 Jun 2026 21:47:35 -0600

This grainy image was probably taken in the late 1990's to early 2000's. We have the SVRR train headed through the S Wye area on the way to Sumpter. The forward green car and the box car turned into a passenger car were sold many years ago to the Colorado Historical Society for used at the Georgetown Loop. I don't know what became of the green car, but the box car I believe ended up destroyed by accidental fire. Both cars were originally of DRGW heritage. The rear green car is still in use today, but had been updated considerably. The scan is from the SVRR Archive.
[attachment 103751 12455-Copy-Copy.jpg]

Questioning authenticity of poster on Facebook gets me blocked? (38 replies)

Mark Fuller — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 15:29:53 -0600

Came across this poster on Facebook:

Travel The Denver, Leadville & Gunnison over Boreas Pass

I asked What’s going on with the coach? It’s at a weird angle to the tender. Seems like Ai to me.

Boom! Insta-block. Oh well. Guess I shouldn’t question Richard Crabtree in public.

Is this a real, authentic poster? Apologies if it is authentic.

Mark

Poor man's ditch light? (13 replies)

John West — Fri, 26 Jun 2026 07:12:42 -0600

When you go to the webcam site the banner image across the top shows the 489 with a lantern strapped securely to one of the front steps. Is that a poor man's ditch light?

[attachment 103750 Webcams---Friends-of-the-Cumbres--Toltec-Scenic-Railroad.jpg]

JBWX

Questions about best and worst K-36 locomotives (19 replies)

Lordsburg Subdivision Railfan — Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:53:02 -0600

Hello, if there is anyone who has worked on the K-36, what are the best and worst members of the class in your opinion.

Alpine Tunnel questions (6 replies)

Kurt Maechner — Mon, 22 Jun 2026 20:37:40 -0600

1. Does anyone know the background of the wood Alpine Tunnel memorial display at the west portal shown in the (very blurry) 1991 image below?
I know it is no longer there. It was removed sometime in the 1990s or early 2000s to my knowledge.
[attachment 103746 AlpineTunnelwoodmemorial.jpg]

2. Does anyone know when the facing of the east portal of Alpine Tunnel collapsed. I was there in 2003 and it hadn't collapsed yet. But upon my next visit in 2018 it had.

Here is 2003
[attachment 103747 Eastportal2003.jpeg]

Here is 2018
[attachment 103748 3T2A7560.jpeg]

Thanks for any info,
Kurt

Georgetown Loop Silver Plume Depot Museum (1 reply)

MatthewM — Sat, 20 Jun 2026 21:14:39 -0600

Is there a way to tour the museum inside the Silver Plume depot without taking the full Georgetown Loop tour? I have limited time in the area and would love to document the Plymouth locomotive inside the museum but don't have time to do the train ride. Last time I passed the depot there were signs saying no admittance and no parking.

Dumping Fill Below Hwy. 7 at SVRR (no replies)

J.B.Bane — Sat, 20 Jun 2026 16:15:17 -0600

Apart from the obvious that this was taken at SVRR of the WH Eccles #3 with a former EBT hopper and just a glimpse of a White Pass side dump. I have no other back ground. And, it is fall with the yellow leaves and snow on the mountains. The photo might have been taken at an Oct. photo special, or we might actually have been doing some track work. The scan is from the SVRR Archive. (I first shared this on Facebook to which Taylor Rush replied that this was when we were dumping fill material below Hwy. 7 in 2003. I thought it was a bit later, but he is usually right about such things. So, if that is the case, I think that is me in the cab!)
[attachment 103742 img3001-Copy-Copy.jpg]

June Friends of the C&TS Town Hall - Season 2 Episode 7 (no replies)

gregcoit — Sat, 20 Jun 2026 14:07:18 -0600

Hi all!

Quote

You're invited to June Friends of the C&TS Town Hall Season 2 Episode 7

June Friends of the C&TS Town Hall Season 2 Episode 7

Thu, Jun 25, 2026 8:00 PM - 9:00 PM (UTC-05:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada)

June’s Virtual Town Hall will focus on sharing the ongoing work through the eyes of our volunteers. We will have insights into the work volunteers are doing during Work Sessions C & D. There will be photos and videos from projects, updates, and more. At the end of the call, there will be time to answer any questions you might have about our work or the volunteer experience.

As our host, we have longtime Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec member, volunteer, and railfan, Greg Coit.

When: Thursday, June 25, 2026, 8 pm Eastern, 7 pm Central, 6 pm Mountain, 5 pm Pacific

Joining the event usually requires only clicking the link. However, in some cases you may be prompted to copy and paste the Meeting ID and Passcode.

If you are joining from a mobile device, you may need to download the Microsoft Teams app and will be provided a link to do so upon trying to join the meeting. Once downloaded, you will be able to click the link and join the call.

Please note, if you are joining us from a device that is logged into another organization’s Teams account, you may need to logout to join as a guest, depending on your organization’s internal settings.

Need help or have technical questions about joining the event? Contact us at kswalser@fctsrr.org.

Sincerely,

Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad, Inc.

View event Join event

Meeting ID: 269 311 299 769 487
Passcode: Yq3Gg6UX

D&RGW 340 and the Photographer's Charter (no replies)

Yard Limit — Sat, 20 Jun 2026 08:44:48 -0600

Check out my video of the Photographer's Charter featuring D&RGW 340 on June 7, 2026.

video: [youtu.be]

Two "Lost" Crowns Last Seen 09/22/04 (no replies)

CKHolliday#1 — Fri, 19 Jun 2026 23:06:55 -0600

Hello Folks:

I am trying to track down the current whereabouts and operational status of two specific 24-inch gauge Crown Metal Products 4-4-0 steam locomotives. Both of these engines were last sold at an auction conducted by Norton Auctioneers on September 22, 2004, at what was then Bonfante Gardens (now known as Gilroy Gardens Family Theme Park in Gilroy, California). These locomotives were meticulously maintained but no official sightings have occured since then. Here is what I know:

Crown #3 (Purple/Silver livery): Built in 1966, construction number 3181-1. It was refurbished by the legendary Chad O'Connor in 1986 and configured to burn Diesel #2.

Crown #5 (Blue/Black livery): Built in 1971, builder number 9420A. Also refurbished by Chad O'Connor in 1986, it was modified to burn propane.

These were owned by Michael Bonfante, the park's founder, and he intended to use them in the park, but emissions were too great.

According to Norton Auctioneers, these were sold to a 'new home in Idaho.' However, a source of mine was at this auction (and has already given me all of the information they have,) and was told by a relative of the known purchaser that they lived in Oregon. It seems plausible that they are in good hands but have simply been misidentified as another Crown, as many of these engines share mysterious histories.

Thanks to anyone with any information to provide! The link below an archive of the Norton Auctioneers results website.

[web.archive.org]

[attachment 103735 Screenshot_20260615_132159_Drive.jpg]
[attachment 103736 BonfanteGardensTrain1.jpg]
[attachment 103737 BonfanteGardensTrain2.jpg]

Me and 278 (2 replies)

Jerry474 — Fri, 19 Jun 2026 17:06:31 -0600

My new D&RGW C-16 book will be released later this summer. Three of the C-16s have survived. One is #278 displayed at the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park at Cimarron, Colorado for years. It is off the bridge and likely will never go back.

In 1975, a student friend, Bill Jones, who was attending Western State College in Gunnison, got a Park Service contract to do a cosmetic restoration and painting of the engine and train. In September of that year, during a visit to the area, he invited me to walk across a two foot wide catwalk out on the bridge. I have photographed from the back seats of jet fighter planes at over 40,000 feet, but I think that was the scariest thing I have ever done. Did get some great detail shots.

[attachment 103732 278-Me.jpg]

[attachment 103733 _Z702459copy.jpg]

[attachment 103734 _Z703548.jpg]

Photo on eBay RGS 41 (14 replies)

ToltecTalk — Tue, 23 Jun 2026 09:48:07 -0600

Was this photo taken in Ridgway or Durango. Check out the cool caboose in the background.

[www.ebay.com]